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Today I'd like to share a post by Joshua Palmatier-- friend and partner in crimes both literary and not. Joshua writes about critique groups, which is appropriate since this is how we first came to know one another.
Critique Groups by Joshua Palmatier
I’ve been part of two critique groups in my writing career so far, so I thought I’d talk about both of them, their differences, their pros, their cons, etc. I’d say that both of them worked for me in various ways, and I’m still on in of them in a way, although the circumstances for the group have changed. If you’re considering trying to improve your writing by joining a critique group, there are a few things you might learn from reading about my experiences.
Throughout high school and college, I was basically on my own, teaching myself how to write. But then in grad school I ran across the Online Writing Workshop, initially begun by Del Rey as a way of potentially discovering new writers. It later broke away from Del Rey and became its own entity, and it still exists today (sff.onlinewritingworkshop.com). I ended up joining, mostly because I didn’t know anyone at the school that was writing SF&F stories or novels, so this was a good way to “meet” some people who shared the same drive as I did. And perhaps they’d be able to help me take my writing to the next level.
The format of the workshop was simple: you posted your work to the workshop (max of 7500 words); people read and critiqued it for a point; you read and critiqued other posts for a point; after you earned 3 points, you could post something else. The pros of this method are that you could potentially get feedback on your post from multiple people. Usually the number depended on how many critiques YOU posted, since most people on the site would do a “crit for a crit”. So if you critiqued a lot, you got critiqued a lot in return. So it was a good source for feedback if you were willing to put some work into it. The con was that the critiques you received weren’t necessarily of good quality. Many people would simply do a haphazard, short, useless critique in order to get that point so they could post something of their own again quickly. Over time, you learned to cultivate your own critique group on the site: I’d look for people who gave thoughtful, insightful critiques on others’ posts, then critique their stuff in hopes that they’d return the crit. I also sought out and conversed online with those that appeared more serious about improving their own writing. So in order to get great benefits from the online group, you had to put in some extra effort to find those people on the site that would be able to help you the most. If you didn’t want to put in the time critiquing other posts, or searching out people who might be able to help you, then the benefits of the site were limited.
I was willing to put in the time (it kept me distracted from the hellish stress of getting that PhD after all). I found a good group of people who gave good critiques. We called ourselves the Vicious Circle. In the end, I feel that my writing improved greatly over my time at the workshop. Unfortunately, an online workshop like that could only take my writing so far and after a while I felt like I needed something more. I started backing away from the workshop and looking for something else.
That’s when I ran into Patricia Bray and Jennifer Dunne, two SF&F writers who happened to live in my area and were interested in forming an in-person critique group. So we started trading chapter, then getting together to critique them, eat, drink, and generally have fun. Both of them had already been published, which was one of the advantages of this group over the online group: the skill level was greater for those participating. It was what I needed to push my writing to a higher level. The pros are obvious: I could meet with my critiquers in person and have a conversation, something difficult to do through email online. I could ask questions and get instant feedback. I knew I’d get a critique in return and didn’t have to sit back after hitting “submit critique” and wait to see if the other person would return the crit or not. And of course, the overall critique meeting was just more fun, because the members (which later included others, such as Tracy St. Hilaire/Avery Shade and April Steenburgh) were or became good friends.
There were very few disadvantages in the group we formed (laughingly called the Hard Lemonade Science Fiction Society), mostly because everyone in the group got along. But in general, an in-person group has the disadvantage, just like the online group, that you have to pick and choose who you think has good advice and who doesn’t. In most in-person groups, there are going to be some people who just don’t understand your work or what you’re trying to accomplish, and you have to figure out who they are, nod politely at their crits, but ignore them when it comes time to do revisions. Sometimes, personalities in these groups will clash—not just over writing, but in everything. So you have to find a group of people that you can work well with, people that will support you and your writing, but at the same time people you can trust to give you an honest opinion of your work. If it sucks, they need to be able to tell you AND give you advice on how to fix it and make it better.
The other disadvantage of the in-person group is that people’s lives change. I’m no longer a part of the Hard Lemonaders, because pretty much everyone in the group has moved away from the area, so we don’t get together for critique sessions anymore. Jennifer Dunne moved to Denver, Patricia Bray to New Hampshire, Tracy St. Hilaire/Avery Shade to North Carolina. The only remaining members in the area are me and April Steenburgh. Oh, I still send them chapters and stories to critique, but it isn’t the same doing it online as in-person. Helpful, yes, but not the same.
Hopefully, after reading this, you see that finding a good, supportive critique group requires some effort and work on your part, whether it’s online or in-person. You have to find supportive people who are willing to push you to higher levels; and you need to be able to have fun. If you can tie them in the basement so they can’t move away from you, even better. *grin* And keep in mind that perhaps a critique group just won’t work for you. I found it helpful doing the online group . . . but only to a certain point. After that, I found the in-person group helpful. I’d still be doing that group, if I could.
Joshua Palmatier (aka Benjamin Tate) is a fantasy writer with DAW Books, with two series on the shelf, a few short stories, and is co-editor with Patricia Bray of two anthologies. Check out the “Throne of Amenkor” trilogy—The Skewed Throne, The Cracked Throne, and The Vacant Throne—under the Joshua Palmatier name. And look for the “Well” series—Well of Sorrows and the just released Leaves of Flame—by Benjamin Tate. Short stories are included in the anthologies Close Encounters of the Urban Kind (edited by Jennifer Brozek), Beauty Has Her Way (Jennifer Brozek), and River (Alma Alexander). And the two anthologies he’s co-edited are After Hours: Tales from the Ur-bar and the upcoming The Modern Fae’s Guide to Surviving Humanity (March 2012). Find out more about both names at www.joshuapalmatier.com and www.benjamintate.com, as well as on Facebook, LiveJournal (jpsorrow), and Twitter (bentateauthor).
Note from Patricia: I miss Josh too! And don't forget to check out his latest book:
Critique Groups by Joshua Palmatier
I’ve been part of two critique groups in my writing career so far, so I thought I’d talk about both of them, their differences, their pros, their cons, etc. I’d say that both of them worked for me in various ways, and I’m still on in of them in a way, although the circumstances for the group have changed. If you’re considering trying to improve your writing by joining a critique group, there are a few things you might learn from reading about my experiences.
Throughout high school and college, I was basically on my own, teaching myself how to write. But then in grad school I ran across the Online Writing Workshop, initially begun by Del Rey as a way of potentially discovering new writers. It later broke away from Del Rey and became its own entity, and it still exists today (sff.onlinewritingworkshop.com). I ended up joining, mostly because I didn’t know anyone at the school that was writing SF&F stories or novels, so this was a good way to “meet” some people who shared the same drive as I did. And perhaps they’d be able to help me take my writing to the next level.
The format of the workshop was simple: you posted your work to the workshop (max of 7500 words); people read and critiqued it for a point; you read and critiqued other posts for a point; after you earned 3 points, you could post something else. The pros of this method are that you could potentially get feedback on your post from multiple people. Usually the number depended on how many critiques YOU posted, since most people on the site would do a “crit for a crit”. So if you critiqued a lot, you got critiqued a lot in return. So it was a good source for feedback if you were willing to put some work into it. The con was that the critiques you received weren’t necessarily of good quality. Many people would simply do a haphazard, short, useless critique in order to get that point so they could post something of their own again quickly. Over time, you learned to cultivate your own critique group on the site: I’d look for people who gave thoughtful, insightful critiques on others’ posts, then critique their stuff in hopes that they’d return the crit. I also sought out and conversed online with those that appeared more serious about improving their own writing. So in order to get great benefits from the online group, you had to put in some extra effort to find those people on the site that would be able to help you the most. If you didn’t want to put in the time critiquing other posts, or searching out people who might be able to help you, then the benefits of the site were limited.
I was willing to put in the time (it kept me distracted from the hellish stress of getting that PhD after all). I found a good group of people who gave good critiques. We called ourselves the Vicious Circle. In the end, I feel that my writing improved greatly over my time at the workshop. Unfortunately, an online workshop like that could only take my writing so far and after a while I felt like I needed something more. I started backing away from the workshop and looking for something else.
That’s when I ran into Patricia Bray and Jennifer Dunne, two SF&F writers who happened to live in my area and were interested in forming an in-person critique group. So we started trading chapter, then getting together to critique them, eat, drink, and generally have fun. Both of them had already been published, which was one of the advantages of this group over the online group: the skill level was greater for those participating. It was what I needed to push my writing to a higher level. The pros are obvious: I could meet with my critiquers in person and have a conversation, something difficult to do through email online. I could ask questions and get instant feedback. I knew I’d get a critique in return and didn’t have to sit back after hitting “submit critique” and wait to see if the other person would return the crit or not. And of course, the overall critique meeting was just more fun, because the members (which later included others, such as Tracy St. Hilaire/Avery Shade and April Steenburgh) were or became good friends.
There were very few disadvantages in the group we formed (laughingly called the Hard Lemonade Science Fiction Society), mostly because everyone in the group got along. But in general, an in-person group has the disadvantage, just like the online group, that you have to pick and choose who you think has good advice and who doesn’t. In most in-person groups, there are going to be some people who just don’t understand your work or what you’re trying to accomplish, and you have to figure out who they are, nod politely at their crits, but ignore them when it comes time to do revisions. Sometimes, personalities in these groups will clash—not just over writing, but in everything. So you have to find a group of people that you can work well with, people that will support you and your writing, but at the same time people you can trust to give you an honest opinion of your work. If it sucks, they need to be able to tell you AND give you advice on how to fix it and make it better.
The other disadvantage of the in-person group is that people’s lives change. I’m no longer a part of the Hard Lemonaders, because pretty much everyone in the group has moved away from the area, so we don’t get together for critique sessions anymore. Jennifer Dunne moved to Denver, Patricia Bray to New Hampshire, Tracy St. Hilaire/Avery Shade to North Carolina. The only remaining members in the area are me and April Steenburgh. Oh, I still send them chapters and stories to critique, but it isn’t the same doing it online as in-person. Helpful, yes, but not the same.
Hopefully, after reading this, you see that finding a good, supportive critique group requires some effort and work on your part, whether it’s online or in-person. You have to find supportive people who are willing to push you to higher levels; and you need to be able to have fun. If you can tie them in the basement so they can’t move away from you, even better. *grin* And keep in mind that perhaps a critique group just won’t work for you. I found it helpful doing the online group . . . but only to a certain point. After that, I found the in-person group helpful. I’d still be doing that group, if I could.
Joshua Palmatier (aka Benjamin Tate) is a fantasy writer with DAW Books, with two series on the shelf, a few short stories, and is co-editor with Patricia Bray of two anthologies. Check out the “Throne of Amenkor” trilogy—The Skewed Throne, The Cracked Throne, and The Vacant Throne—under the Joshua Palmatier name. And look for the “Well” series—Well of Sorrows and the just released Leaves of Flame—by Benjamin Tate. Short stories are included in the anthologies Close Encounters of the Urban Kind (edited by Jennifer Brozek), Beauty Has Her Way (Jennifer Brozek), and River (Alma Alexander). And the two anthologies he’s co-edited are After Hours: Tales from the Ur-bar and the upcoming The Modern Fae’s Guide to Surviving Humanity (March 2012). Find out more about both names at www.joshuapalmatier.com and www.benjamintate.com, as well as on Facebook, LiveJournal (jpsorrow), and Twitter (bentateauthor).
Note from Patricia: I miss Josh too! And don't forget to check out his latest book: